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 Dinosaurs (currently 247 views) |
| Templar |
| Posted on: March 13th, 2005, 5:05am |
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I'm not absolutely closed-minded on the possibility of humans interacting with dinosaurs. Although it seems unlikely that any of these creatures escaped their extinction long enough to meet a human - the Coelocanth managed it so maybe a Plesiosaur might be able to struggle through.
So it's with open, but skeptical mind that I examine the evidence for dinosaur/human interaction. I'll be using this webpage:
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm
What really bothers me about this site is how ridiculously tiny the graphics are. Surely if you have good evidence demonstrating that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries - you would paste it up in 1024x768 hi-res jpgs - not tiny little glyphs that would barely rate as thumbnails. I've spent a lot of time trying to find larger versions of these pics so I can arrive at reasonable conclusions.
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Last modified March 13th, 2005, 5:07am by Templar |
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 13th, 2005, 5:13am
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| The first pic on the top right supposedly shows a dinosaur attacking a Woolly Mammoth. After looking and looking and looking at the original painting - I honestly could make absolutely NOTHING out of it! I suppose if I look at it long enough I could come up with some fanciful, cloud-formation style interpretation but that would just be my imagination. |
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Reply: 1 - 11 |
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 13th, 2005, 9:30pm
Deleted Attachment: sirrush.jpg |
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The second tiny pic is of a Babyloninan "sirrush".
According to the site; this reptilian creature was displayed with lions and bulls therefore supposedly proving that it wasn't mythological. Well it was common to depict mythological beings with real creatures. A common crest shows a unicorn with a lion.
http://www.glasgowsculpture.com/pg_images.php?sub=lion_unicorn
Anyway let's look at a big version of this pic found elsewhere. This is an obvious amalgam animal that could never exist in real life. Like the Greek chimera, it is composed of three animals. The head, body and tail of a snake. The front paws of a lion and the rear legs of an eagle. It goes without saying that no animal would have different front legs and back legs. The animal looks nothing like any dinosaur; the tail, despite the scales, is mammalian, the skin is not like fossilized dinosaur skin but like today's reptiles and no one believes that dinosaurs had forked tongues..
Honestly - which dinosaur is this supposed to be?
A young sauropod would not have a forked tongue or horn and would be sporting completely different tail, legs and body. It's just an amalgam myth.
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 16th, 2005, 1:06am
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Next:
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The ancient Sumatrans produced multiple pieces of art depicting long-tailed, long-necked creatures with a headcrest. Some of these animals resemble hadrosaurs. This particular work (Ethnographical Museum, Budapest) depicts a creature that bears a striking resemblence to a Corythosaurus which is being hunted by these ancient Indonesian peoples. (Bodrogi, Tibor, Art of Indonesia, plate #10, 1973.)
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Let's look at the pic maties - I blew it up so we could look at it clearer. Is it a Corythosaurus or a Rooster? Seriously - a Corythosaurus would be lacking its front limbs, its back sways out instead of in and unless it was pitched far forward - its tail would certainly NOT be pointed straight up like a rooster. The scales could be feathers or could indicate a mythological chicken like the cockatrice or basilisk. Chickens are very important to Indonesia where they are often featured on pottery.
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 21st, 2005, 12:04pm
Deleted Attachment: hessioneskull.jpg |
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What's next on this website? The Hesione Vase? Well let's look at it. What a ridiculously small and badly positioned image. The skull is barely seen as we squint at it coming around the side of a turned vase. I'll put up a better version so we can look at it and judge.
According to the site:
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Pictured on this ancient Greek vase is a series of somewhat unusual paintings, including one that portrays a monster that possesses the head of a dinosaur. This pottery was created around 550 B.C., and depicts the Greek hero Heracles rescuing Hesione from this "monster of Troy." Forced to concede the amazingly realistic dinosaurian depiction, Science News concluded that the paintings on this unusual vase simply prove that ancient people dug fossils, too.
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I do NOT see the "head of a dinosaur" - I see a BARE animal skull. This skull bears as much resemblance to an Apatosaur as it does to an eel. It's just a skull and the artist probably took some major artistic license with it to make it look scary.
What do experts say? They do NOT say that the skull is the skull of a dinosaur. Instead:
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I suggest that instead of creating a typical hybrid sea monster by mixing the features of various living creatures, this artist used for his model the large fossil skull of a prehistoric mammal. The vase was painted in the midst of widespread interest in large fossil remains, which the ancient Greeks identified as relics of giants and monsters of the mythological age. The features of the odd head on the vase match the basic skull anatomy of a large mammal of the Tertiary age, such as the Samotherium, a giant giraffe of the Miocene epoch. - Adrienne Mayor "First Fossil Huners"
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First off - the sentence: "Forced to concede the amazingly realistic dinosaurian depiction..." is a blatant lie as no scientist has conceded that this was a dinosaur - only (possibly) the skull of an extinct mammal. Speaking of the extinct giraffe... Is it a Samotherium? Probably not. There is more similarity between this skull and a garden snake than there is with this ancient mammal.
So - this is an animal skull with no distinctive dinosaurian features. It could as easily be a snake skull as a fossil and is therefore absolutely zero proof of the existence of Dinosaurs in the modern world.
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Last modified March 21st, 2005, 12:05pm by Templar |
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 23rd, 2005, 2:38am
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Next up:
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To the left is an urn from Caria, which was located in Asia Minor (Turkey). This artifact (described in Thomas H. Carpenter’s 1991 book Art and Myth in Ancient Greece: A Handbook) is estimated to be from 530 BC. It depicts what appears to be a mosasaurus with several known sea creatures. The animal behind the sea serpent is a seal, while an octopus is below the sea serpent along with what seems to be a dolphin. The thick jaws, big teeth, large eyes, and positioning of the flippers on this creature match a mosasaurus skeleton very well.
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What a tiny pic! Well I looked and looked and could not find a better pic of this urn so I blew it up. Let's look at the creature - is it a Mosasaurus or a giant eel? I think we can see that the Mosasaurus is not nearly as serpentine as this creature - looking more like a crocodile with fins. It could never bend in the middle the way this creature is bending. It just seems more likely that the artist blew up a common eel found at the nile rather than tried to depict a real Mosasaurus.
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 23rd, 2005, 7:43pm
Deleted Attachment: serpopods.jpg |
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Next we have the supposed depictions of sauropods on an ancient Mesopotamian seal, a cartouche and a cosmetic palette. When I first saw the Mesopotamian seal I have to admit that I was quite impressed with the evidence... then I researched it. This creature is actually a mythological monster called a "serpopard" or "serpent-leopard". If you look at the features you will find a pronounced catlike head with ears and whiskers, clawed paws and a mammalian tail. The reason these pictures look so much like sauropods is due to the fact that they have been presented in such a tiny format that the non-sauropod features don't come out. I had to find a close-up of the "cosmetic palette" on an art site as no Christian site had one large enough to really study.
I've posted a huge pic of the palette so you can study it:
http://www.bikinilane.com/atheism/twodogs.jpg
More pics and info on "Serpopards":
http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterFour/NarmersPaletteReverse.htm
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/beasts.htm
I repeat that this cat creature is only similar to a sauropod when depicted in a tiny thumbnail. A true sauropod wouldn't have ears, pointy teeth, clawed feet, puma-like body or a skinny and slinky tail. That should take care of the seal and the palette.
Now what about the cartouche (in the middle)? It just seems so obvious that this creature is a crocodile with an eel or a crocodile with just a design above it. This pic is so distorted that it can't be anything definitive and I'm really not interested in doing the work to track down a large, clear pic.
Here are some more pics of serpopards for you to study:
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Last modified March 23rd, 2005, 7:51pm by Templar |
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| Templar |
Posted on: March 24th, 2005, 11:06pm
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Next is a Roman Mosaic
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To the right is a Roman mosaic from about 200 AD that depicts two long-necked sea dragons. Paul Taylor, author of The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible, likens them to the web-footed Tanystropheus shown beside.
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I suppose if all I had to look at was that tiny thumbnail I could make that kind of bizarre comparison as well. Well let's look at a bigger picture (below). The creature is a silly-looking sea dragon. Unlike a Tanystropheus, it has a Goofy like dogface complete with floppy ears, two legs and apparently a tail made out of a fish.
This looks nothing like a dinosaur - instead we see a Sea-Dragon similar to the Greek Sea-Dragon, Cetus which was slain by Perseus with the Medusa Head. Below is Cetus as seen by Greeks as a constellation. The dragons are not fighting but instead, encircling necks like the serpopards above or swans and snakes in other illustrations.
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Last modified March 24th, 2005, 11:08pm by Templar |
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Reply: 7 - 11 |
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| Christian |
| Posted on: April 4th, 2005, 10:51pm |
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Quoted from Templar, posted March 16th, 2005, 1:06am at here |
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Next:
Let's look at the pic maties - I blew it up so we could look at it clearer. Is it a Corythosaurus or a Rooster? Seriously - a Corythosaurus would be lacking its front limbs, its back sways out instead of in and unless it was pitched far forward - its tail would certainly NOT be pointed straight up like a rooster. The scales could be feathers or could indicate a mythological chicken like the cockatrice or basilisk. Chickens are very important to Indonesia where they are often featured on pottery.
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Notice there are people on that picture too. They sure had BIG roosters in those days!! |
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| Christian |
| Posted on: April 4th, 2005, 10:54pm |
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Quoted from Templar, posted March 23rd, 2005, 2:38am at here |
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Next up:
What a tiny pic! Well I looked and looked and could not find a better pic of this urn so I blew it up. Let's look at the creature - is it a Mosasaurus or a giant eel? I think we can see that the Mosasaurus is not nearly as serpentine as this creature - looking more like a crocodile with fins. It could never bend in the middle the way this creature is bending. It just seems more likely that the artist blew up a common eel found at the nile rather than tried to depict a real Mosasaurus.
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The picture looks like it has front and back flipppers like the Mosasaurus. The eel doesn't have those.
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| Templar |
| Posted on: April 10th, 2005, 9:51pm |
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Posts: 72
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Hi Christian
I'm sorry - I guess I started losing interest in my hobby here.
The creature above is drawn like a standard sea serpent and what appears to you to be a rear flipper appears to me to be a spike. You can see similar spikes over its head and near the end of its tail. I just don't think that someone who witnessed a real Mosasaur would've drawn it so serpentine.
I originally addressed all these "evidences" with an open mind because I do believe that a class of dinosaur (especially sea-bound) could've escaped extinction. Sharks and whales both escaped the extinction that Plesiosaurs, Tylosaurs and Icthyosaurs apparently didn't. This tends to indicate that the animals died of a Class (Dinosaur) based virus which selectively wiped them out while leaving crocodiles, snakes and skates alive. Any Christian based theory could not possibly explain why the dinosaurs were selectively killed off leaving similar, even more delicate, animals alive.
We do need to use Akkam's Razor and accept the simpler and more likely explanation. It is possible that Jack is late because he was abducted by aliens but more likely he just suffered a tire blow-out. It is possible that the painters of the vase saw a Mosasaurus but it is more likely that they were simply drawing a sea serpent or giant eel.
Nice to see you again Christian.
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| Templar |
| Posted on: April 10th, 2005, 9:57pm |
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Notice there are people on that picture too. They sure had BIG roosters in those days!!
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But they are most obviously roosters.
My best guess is:
The artist is showing the roosters in the foreground as the main subject and the people at a table in the background. The viewer is supposed to enjoy how beautiful the roosters are and simply accept the people as background. Notice that the people are rendered with little detail indicating an artist's intolerance for drawing necessary background.
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Debunking Apologetics! › General › Origins › Dinosaurs
